What do you mean by that? Jeremy Bloom provided original music. The Republican state Legislature sends a slate of electors that says Trump wins. Where deep-dive journalism, storytelling and sound design meet. But they're human beings, and so they have their own mind. Review our. At some point, she ends up on the phone with a colleague of hers, Nils Gilman, who works at the Berggruen Institute. Deep breaths. LARRY WILKERSON: Thirty-one years a soldier in the United States Army. Radiolab is one of the most beloved podcasts and public radio shows in the world. JAD ABUMRAD: ...Each one exploring a different outcome. You know, I'd been thinking about ways to really explore these branching pathways. When I hit the mic, it's going off the charts. La… Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate. You can read The Transition Integrity Project’s report here. And that was the thing that proved decisive. Why is it that that happens? We killed people in Oklahoma - over, as I recall, over 200 people in the insurrection there. So a human being actually is an elector and votes the vote of that state's electoral vote. Would he dispute the results if he loses? JAD ABUMRAD: Oh, my God - D&D flashbacks. BETHEL HABTE: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, you know, acted on his own initiative - wink, wink. JAD ABUMRAD: October 30, 1938. ROSA BROOKS: You know, it's 2 in the morning on election night or whatever, and here is what we know so far. ROBERT RABEN: The possibility that at noon on the 20th, the Pentagon, the Joint Chiefs of Staff have to hand the nuclear codes to someone. This episode was reported by Bethel Habte, with help from Tracie Hunte, and produced by Bethel Habte. JAD ABUMRAD: He's talking specifically about this move. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Game 1 - ambiguous result. So she says it's very plausible that a single human could have that kind of influence. JAD ABUMRAD: This sort of casual dinner chat was long before Trump made the famous statements about how he might not commit to a peaceful transition of power. JAD ABUMRAD: See, these electors are not actually accountable to the voters. And the presiding officer is the president of the Senate, which is the Vice President of United States. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The Biden campaign quickly dispelled this information, but Facebook kept posts about the heart attack up. But that's a decision each state made, and it's a decision they can unmake at any time. This is a scenario where it is not clear for a while who has won. JAD ABUMRAD: OK, so the baller move in question - trying to get a state to send an alternate set of electors. First-person diaries, sound portraits, and hidden chapters of history from Peabody Award-winning producer Joe Richman and the Radio Diaries team. ROSA BROOKS: And the judge said, oh, that would never happen. Copyright © 2020 New York Public Radio. And it's those people who vote for Joe Biden. You can read The Transition Integrity Project’s report here. In the 12th Amendment, which I have in a tab here, among thousands of tabs... EDWARD FOLEY: The 12th Amendment to the Constitution says that Congress has a joint session. No signup or install needed. So what they can do is they cannot abide by the vote of their state. And from then on, nobody ran for a third term. JAD ABUMRAD: Which, again, many people predict will be the case. and 148 more episodes by Radiolab, free! ROSA BROOKS: And so I told Nils this. But there was something about that dinner and that guy next to her's response. And I should also say that since we started this story, Bethel has unfortunately left us here at RADIOLAB, which is a very sad thing for us. ROSA BROOKS: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Game 1 - ambiguous result. By submitting your information, you're agreeing to receive communications Would he dispute the results if he loses? We'll text you right back with a link where you can make an easy donation in support of the show. ROSA BROOKS: You know, and the military does them all the time on issues like, gee, you know, if we had to fight two conflicts at once, would we be able to? I just switched to AirPods, which I actually find to be better. JAD ABUMRAD: So at this point in the gameplay, both campaigns call for supporters to get out in the streets - protest, protest, protest. Bloc Party. MATTHEW SANDERSON: People regularly refer to this as Election Day... HOWARD OPINSKY: But you have many, many, many ballots that aren't even counted yet. RAJ GOYLE: You definitely needed to stay alert and stay on your toes or else you would have missed something. All rights reserved. Rationally Speaking is the bi-weekly podcast of New York City Skeptics. So they're actually thinking about this. JAD ABUMRAD: This is RADIOLAB. Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate. JAD ABUMRAD: They got generals, lobbyists, think tankers, people in the media - 67 people in all - gathered them all together and divided them into teams. But then something very weird goes down. You know the choose-your-own-adventure book. With over 1,800 documentaries on offer, the Documentary On One Podcast has the largest archive of documentaries available in the world, dating as far back as 1954, right up to the present day. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: ...Skewed toward President Trump and the GOP. ROBERT RABEN: Who holds the nuclear codes? I'm Jad Abumrad. Like, what specifically would happen? [RADIOLAB INTRO] JAD: This is Radiolab. ROSA BROOKS: So the Insurrection Act allows the active-duty U.S. military to be used domestically, you know, to put down an insurrection, maintain order, protect federal property. Social media rumors spread on Twitter that such and such is happening. JAD ABUMRAD: Oh, so it's socioeconomic. It's kind of like a State of the Union address. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The outcome of the scenario hinged on how the elected officials from the two parties addressed the separate slate of electors from Michigan. Like, it's a norm that the popular vote reflects who ends up in the Electoral College, but it's not written down... BETHEL HABTE: ...That it's required for legislatures. JAD ABUMRAD: Three swing states. Our colleagues at Radiolab went looking for answers. RAJ GOYLE: So I'm just looking at it right here. Wait; what? But it is a plausible move under Article II of the Constitution. Jad: This is Radiolab, and today-Robert: Inheritance, what you can move on to the next generation and what you can't. And I'm kind of sitting there thinking, wait a minute. And then in Washington State, three of these electors voted for Colin Powell. Oh, and one thing I think it's important to say before we launch in - everyone we talked to told us that when it comes to the actual election that's about to happen... HOWARD OPINSKY: It's certainly unlikely to be over on election night. EDWARD FOLEY: Most people don't remember that in 2008, it took Missouri a long time to declare whether John McCain won or Barack Obama won. JAD ABUMRAD: Yeah. Would he dispute the results if he loses? ROSA BROOKS: We had a Biden campaign team, a Trump campaign team. I spent several years working at the Pentagon. EDWARD FOLEY: It doesn't - the Constitution doesn't say. JAD ABUMRAD: OK, so far, if you ask me, no huge surprises yet, but this was actually just the first turn from each team. ROSA BROOKS: (Laughter) Well, I started thinking about this sometime last autumn. He says it took two weeks. This is one of those moments in the game where I thought, that's not going to happen. UNIDENTIFIED NEWSCASTER: Donald Trump will be president of the United States. And in all of the games, we kind of called them early. And I could say more, but... JAD ABUMRAD: Suffice it to say, Rosa is pretty well-connected in D.C. political circles. That's RL to the number 70101. This episode was reported by Bethel Habte, with help from Tracie Hunte, and produced by Bethel Habte. And, you know, we all changed the subject because, you know, this was nearly a year ago, and I realized I was sort of sounding like a crazy person. This episode was reported by Bethel Habte (who's now a producer at the Gimlet podcast Resistance), with help from Tracie Hunte, and produced by Bethel Habte. Was that part of the scenario that you guys set up? Post Reports: Four Hours of Insurrection. We had a GOP elected officials team, the Democratic elected officials team. Radiolab is one of the most beloved podcasts and public radio shows in the world. Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. It's the best podcast app and works on Android, iPhone, and the web. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: Trump officials call into question mail-in ballots or the legitimacy of post-Election Day vote counts and enlist the support of Republican officials in several states to immediately halt further vote counting. This was something that the Florida Legislature considered back in 2000, decided not to do it once Vice President Gore conceded defeat. And then that decision, which in many ways is the bedrock of our democracy, it wasn't really written down anywhere or enshrined in law - at least not for a long time. I was in Detroit in 1968 with a loaded .50-caliber machine gun on an APC with a National Guard platoon sitting there, trying to keep people from shooting American citizens in the streets of Detroit. EDWARD FOLEY: That's how you would get these two competing submissions going to Congress. Would he simply refuse to leave office, or even try to use the military to maintain control? JAD ABUMRAD: Now, we're not going to play all four scenarios in full, but there were things that popped up in several of the scenarios that are definitely worth highlighting. JA: That’s our show for today. Our colleagues at Radiolab went looking for answers. BETHEL HABTE: OK. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. HOWARD OPINSKY: Howard Opinsky. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The Trump campaign team asked the Department of Justice... JAD ABUMRAD: ...What happened in each of those games. I did not know that. Again, not a huge surprise. On the same day, the Trump electors would meet, claiming the authority to meet from the state Legislature, which is purported to directly appoint them. Trump, Inc. Business. And I was sitting next to a federal appellate court judge and various fancy D.C. lawyers, and we started chatting about Donald Trump, which is what people chat about, of course. BETHEL HABTE: And those later votes tend to shift blue. We know it's at 1 p.m. And the idea, very simply, was that they would present all of these teams a scenario, and then they'd watch the teams respond. JAD ABUMRAD: And in the scenario we've been following, Game 1, the military did, in fact, deploy in major cities, ready to step in on protests as needed. JAD ABUMRAD: Deep breaths, deep breaths. JAD ABUMRAD: And it was left totally unclear what the military would do. And there was a breakout room. JAD ABUMRAD: But that's not to say that things got any less weird because at this point in the game, as the teams are pressuring elected officials and giving competing press conferences, it was clear that Michigan was going to be the deciding state. JAD ABUMRAD: Anyhow, there was some friendly chitchat. The president of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open - so that's modifying the president of the Senate. ROSA BROOKS: You know, the military has, you know, a million and a half people. And I think if you have the Republicans saying Pence decides and Trump wins and the Democrats saying, no, the evidence is that Biden won fair and square, what does the military do? Hosted by PJ Vogt, Alex Goldman and Emmanuel Dzotsi from Gimlet. That's the real problem. But let me hastily add we have put troops or federalized the National Guard and put them in the streets many times in the past. The show is known for its deep-dive journalism and innovative sound design. So it's both the House of Representatives and the Senate meeting together. Michigan offers up two different sets of electors because of all of these kinds of shenanigans. Or was that one of the moves that one of the teams made - the Trump team, I guess? There’s plenty of speculation about what Donald Trump might do in the wake of the election. It could be not. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: There was no clear resolution of the conflict in the January 6 joint session of Congress. RAJ GOYLE: And they can actually then, in a sense, become a faithless elector and do what they want, despite the fact that they are bound by the results of that state. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. ROBERT RABEN: Three minutes for this and five minutes for this. ROSA BROOKS: That was actually something that the player teams generated. Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate. This episode was reported by Bethel Habte, with help from Tracie Hunte, and produced by Bethel Habte. One of the insights we gained from the simulations was there is a fairly logical path to real conflict. What If? They were just like, I'm going to go my own way? JAD ABUMRAD: They thought, maybe we should just do that. JAD ABUMRAD: Ed Foley says not only is this allowed under state law, it's actually happened before. It could be rigged. And, in fact, people wanted him to stay on. Instead, it’s a deeply illuminating stress test on our laws, our institutions, and on the commitment to democracy written into the constitution. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: GOP elected officials publicly supported Trump's victory and claims of voter fraud. So then what? The only reason we have the system we have now is that back in the day, each state, somewhere along the way, decided that electors should be connected to the popular vote. OK, where we left off, we were following one of Rosa Brooks' war game scenarios that she ran with a bunch of political insiders, high-powered people. There’s plenty of speculation about what Donald Trump might do in the wake of the election. About Radiolab:Created in 2002 by host Jad Abumrad, and now co-hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser, Radiolab began as an exploration of science, philosophy, and ethics using innovative composition and sound design. Congress meets. So what happened in Game Scenario 1 is this. EDWARD FOLEY: Congress would have to deal with it. This hour of Radiolab asks if it's possible for anyone to lead a life without deception. A century-old quirk of math called Benford’s Law. ROBERT RABEN: And then we're going to put on a green shoe, and then everybody's going to turn around twice. JAD ABUMRAD: ...The ambiguous result scenario. Attorney General Barr instructed the DOJ to support litigation that would prevent further counting of mail-in ballots. Radiolab… ROSA BROOKS: That's the working assumption of election and polling experts. The election outcome turned on results of three states - North Carolina, Michigan and Florida. JAD ABUMRAD: But when it comes to the pivotal question - the pivotal question - all we get is a little clause in the 12th Amendment. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachael Cusick, David Gebel, Tracie Hunte, Matt Kielty, Tobin Low, Annie McEwen, Sarah Qari, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters and Molly Webster, with help from Shima Oligee (ph) - no, Oliaee - Sarah Sandbach and Jonny Moens. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/what-if Democratic elected officials were proactive in the states where they held offices to ensure votes would be counted and to build bipartisan coalitions to oversee and protect the count. av Radiolab direkt i din mobil, surfplatta eller webbläsare - utan app. JAD ABUMRAD: I'm Jad Abumrad. RAJ GOYLE: Some people coming off and on video, including myself when I had to go take care of my kids or something like that. Multi award winning documentaries from Ireland telling real life stories. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The Trump campaign also used the bully pulpit of the presidency and its influence with right-wing media to lock in the election night returns. JAD ABUMRAD: And honestly, when we talked to the people who played in these games, it was immediately clear that this wasn't actually about Trump at all. And never fear if you didn’t absorb anything we just said because you can always go to our website, radiolab.org we will give you links there to any of the books you just mentioned. JAD ABUMRAD: That's Edward Foley again. BETHEL HABTE: And the votes shall then be counted. MATTHEW SANDERSON: I think you should start thinking about this as an election quarter. Offre un ampio ventaglio di prestazioni ambulatoriali qualificate di Diagnostica per immagini, trattamenti fisioterapici riabilitativi e visite mediche specialistiche. EDWARD FOLEY: Yeah. "'A podcast about the internet' that is actually an unfailingly original exploration of modern life and how to survive it." Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information. Thank you, Bethel. Would he simply refuse to leave office, or even try to use the military to maintain control? We just can't trust it. This story was reported by Bethel Habte, with help from Tracie Hunte. Suly (ph) Lechtenberg - Suly - no, Suzie Lechtenberg is our executive producer. UNIDENTIFIED ANNOUNCER: The partisans on both sides were still claiming victory, leading to the problem of two claims to commander in chief power, including access to the nuclear codes, at noon on January 20. Over the years it has evolved to become a platform for long-form journalism and storytelling. RadioLab annovera tra le sue sedi anche Torino e Trieste, nelle cui città, per questioni logistiche, purtroppo quest’anno non ci saranno attività legate alla Notte dei Ricercatori. You know, if you decide to stay in the sunny clearing... BETHEL HABTE: And get eaten by a tiger (laughter). BETHEL HABTE: Opens all the certificates. To give you the best possible experience, this site uses cookies. JAD ABUMRAD: That's Raj Goyle, former state representative of Kansas. ROSA BROOKS: My name is Rosa Brooks. Would we be able to respond effectively? Voter fraud. JAD ABUMRAD: Robert Raben, former assistant attorney general. LARRY WILKERSON: You can call me Professor, Colonel, Larry. We consult a cast of characters, from pathological liars to lying snakes to drunken psychiatrists, to try and understand the strange power of lying to yourself and others. And then, of course, they got bored because we gave them half an hour of game instruction (laughter). ROSA BROOKS: So, I mean, I spent - I'm married to a retired Army Special Forces officer. I'm a law professor at Georgetown University. We gave the Trump team first turn, and then the Biden team did a turn. Any topic is fair game as long as we can bring reason to bear upon it, with both a skeptical eye and a good dose of humor! In one scenario, according to Rosa... ROSA BROOKS: The Joint Chiefs of Staff... JAD ABUMRAD: These are the most senior military officials in government. MATTHEW SANDERSON: My name is Matthew Sanderson, Republican election attorney. Wow. No signup or install needed. LARRY WILKERSON: So this is not a country that hasn't done this before. Let's get that straight. JAD ABUMRAD: And these days, he teaches at the College of William & Mary. So those would probably be never-Trumpers. Part war game part choose your own adventure, Rosa’s Transition Integrity Project doesn’t give us any predictions, and it isn’t a referendum on Trump. They can do nothing, which means Trump holds them. EDWARD FOLEY: The scenario I'm imagining looks like exactly what happened back in the disputed election of 1876, where you simultaneously had both teams of electors claiming to be the lawful electors, both meeting on the same date. But it was sobering as a sort of a non-warmongering, peaceful American citizen to realize that it's the Joint Chiefs of Staff of the military who will decide who the president is.